I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish and petulant

In the past, I have repeatedly denounced those Clinton supporters, here and elsewhere, who claim that they will not vote for Obama in the fall if he is the nominee. I thought that letting McCain continue Bush's disastrous term just because Hillary was one of the many candidates who didn't win the nomination is just plain dumb.

I'm sorry I ever thought that. I now join the ranks of those I previously called "childish."

I will not vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton under any circumstances.

After seeing what she has done about the gas tax holiday, and hearing her parrot the words of George W. Bush, sneering at "experts" and pushing an idea that is considered stupid by everyone except those who don't know any better, I can't even think about voting for her without wanting to throw up.

It probably won't matter. Obama has the nomination wrapped up, and if she keeps fighting after June 15, I'm sure Obama will stop being nice and start shredding her with all of her vulnerabilities that have yet gone unexplored, like the donors to the Clinton Library. Besides that, my state is guaranteed to go for McCain.

Still, I will root for a McCain victory if Clinton is the nominee, because it is worth four more years of Bush to finally break the death grip that those two have on the Democratic Party.  These people must be marginalized, Hillary must be pushed to the back bench to sit next to John Kerry, and we must be given a chance to try again in four years instead of the eight years we would have to wait if she wins the White House.

So to everyone who vowed to vote for McCain, I apologize. I am one of you now.



Display:


Re: I'm sorry I (2.00 / 5)

And i too have said I would not vote for BO and i support HRC.  Through it was months ago.

And try to defend HRC when i can because I think his campaign and some suporters have treated her very badly and smeared her.  And it will be very hard for me to vote BO but the fact is i will and that is that.

He may never be my president and i will not lie i dont like him and his campaign.  But that will not stop me from voting for him and sending monies and as much as i can justify.  

david


by giusd on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:59:03 PM EST

Re: I'm sorry I (2.00 / 2)

Good for you David because I know you don't like Senator Obama at all. I too would vote for Senator Clinton if she were to win.


by Politicalslave on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I (none / 0)

for once David we agree


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:29:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 3)

Obama supporters shouldn't be mad because Clinton scored major political points with the gas tax gig.

It doesn't matter what the "experts" say.  Ordinary people don't hear them.

People!  It isn't an argument you want to win, it is a fight.  Obama doesn't have it in him.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:59:17 PM EST

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (1.00 / 6)

you think she'll stop selling you down the river after she's won the presidency?  Bill Clinton didn't.

This what the Clintons and the DLC do: take poll-tested positions in between the two parties--things like "welfare reform", the "V-chip", and voting for wars in Iraq and Iran.

The selling out doesn't stop at inauguration day.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards was the only politician this... (2.00 / 1)

season who would not have sold us down the river. Both Hillary & Obama are pretty good on the selling out thing.

The question right now is who can actually win the general election?

So far based on the demographics, it's looking like Clinton.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards was the only politician this... (2.00 / 3)

really?  i have yet to see that.

What I do see is Obama currently under fire from:

  • Fox News and the entire VRWC
  • Hillary Clinton and her machine
  • Bill Clinton, the former very popular president
  • John McCain
  • and the traditional media's rabid focus on Reverend Wright at the expense of real issues

And he's still winnning.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

Bullshit ~ Bill Clinton did not sell ME down the river, nor will HIllary.  Whatever made you so bitter and mean?


by Mags on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:15:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

Has her bitterness brought her closer to god and guns?  I wonder.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:17:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (1.75 / 4)

they sold the party down the river.  they sold income equality down the river.  They screwed up the possibility of implementing healthcare reform for 15 years.  They sold the poor down the river under the guise of "welfare reform", and sold the manufacturing sector down the river under the guise of "NAFTA."  They sold the LGBT community down the river with the Defense of Marriage Act.  They used every Republican talking point in the book.

Most importantly, they kept on Alan F'ing Greenspan as Fed Chief and racked up huge asset bubbles benefiting the rich and those who own stocks and houses at the expense of all the rest of us.

The Party suffered huge losses during Bill's tenure.

And then Hillary voted for war in Iraq--and then again in Iran.

They sell us out every chance they get.  The only reason I'll ever vote for a Clinton is to disallow a Republican from getting an office--but never otherwise if I can possibly help it.  I don't like being stabbed in the back.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 2)

Look at the exit polls:
Hard Dems are voting for Hillary, LGBT are voting for her, so do the lower-income. As for the Alan Greenspan stuff, voters concerned about the economy vote Hillary too.

I have a hard time believing you're really one of any of these groups. So my advice is: let people decide for themselves if you care so much about them.


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

I am the most unapologetic, openly gay man anyone will ever meet.

Defense of Marraige Act: Good politics.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

glad you think so.  I happen to think that caving to Republicans and spewing their talking points is bad politics.

When it comes to framing issues and public policy, there is no such thing as a step back for two steps forward.

There's only that step back that allows the other side to push you even farther back.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

If he didn't sign it, they would have killed him with it.  It simply allows the states to decide.  

No big deal.

Are you gay??


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Depends which state you live in, I guess. n/t (none / 0)


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:53:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends which state you live in, I guess. n/t (2.00 / 1)

seriously.  Maybe we should take the same position on abortion!

Let's let the states decide--that way the right can't "kill us" with the abortion issue!


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:56:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends which state you live in, I guess. n/t (none / 0)

It is sad that the left seems to be constantly on defense.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:47:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

no, i'm not.  shall we cave to all right-wing politics, then, just so we don't "get killed" with it by the right?

Then by all means, let's keep Don't Ask Don't Tell in place.  After all, it polls well, and a president who tries to change it would just "get killed", right?

And while we're at it, let's vote for Bush's wars in Iraq and Iran, because failure to do so would get us killed as Dirty Fucking Hippies.

And let's build a wall on the Mexican border so we dont get killed on illegal immigration.

And let's support McCain's gas tax holiday huge idiotic giveaway to oil companies so we don't "get killed."

This is the problem with Clinton politics.  It's bad for Democrats, and bad for progressive values.  And even if they may win personally, the Party suffers massive losses because the base is depressed and no one knows what we stand for anymore.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:54:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 2)

Yes, because Obama's post-partisanship is the expression of the progressive ideals.

Are you kidding me? Obama's on record praising the dumbest Republican ideas, from 'freedom' to choose if you want healthcare to pollution regulation


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

you don't like pollution regulation because...why again?

And healthcare mandates are the wrong idea.  They were wrong in Massachusetts, and they're still wrong.  You don't reduce healthcare costs by garnishing people's wages.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

It was about Republican-style pollution regulation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/02/opinio n/02krugman.html

As for the mandates, just notice your argument isn't a progressive one. You may believe it, but you're on the right-wing side of this issue.


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Fine.

LGBT community was quite ok with DOMA back when in was enacted, wasn't it? I mean, they knew what the fight was, right? That means it's good politics, only outdated


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

I hope this is snark.  Good politics do not equal good policy.


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:53:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

No, it is not. The whole gay marriage stuff was always about politics.
As policy, DOMA does not have too much value: if the Full Faith and Credit clause applies to marriage, DOMA is moot. If it doesn't it only leaves the decision to the states. And you know, 10 years after DOMA, gay marriage bans were still being passed in the states anyway.
by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:08:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sure that's great comfort to the married... (none / 0)

couple's of Massachusetts.

Just politics.


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure that's great comfort to the married.. (none / 0)

They should challenge DOMA in court again and again.

see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Faith_ and_Credit_Clause#Same-sex_marriage_cont roversy


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure that's great comfort to the married.. (none / 0)

They should.  It doesn't make DOMA good policy.


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Research the reason why Clinton voted for DOMA before forming opinions.
DOMA was a compromise to have EDNA passed (which ended up failing by just a few votes) and to stop a constitutional amendment from passing, which surely would have happened in the 90s.  
Clinton knew that DOMA is much easier to overturn than a constitutional amendment.  Please do more research next time.
by Scope441 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

I'm highly concerned about the economy--it's my #1 or #2 issue.  Lots of economy voters vote Obama.

Look, it's a demographic thing: baby boomers who got rich under the Clintons often think they were fabulous for the economy.

Millennials and younger Xers who have had to get jobs and pay rent and try to afford housing in the post-Clinton years know better.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Remember when WJC said it's the greatest time to be alive in America? People thought it true.

The point is, however you slice it, you cannot blame the Clintons for making people feel happy during those years.


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:51:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

no, I don't.  It was a frivolous time as people partied even as the embers started to burn the foundation of the house.

I do blame the Clintons for exacerbating the situation and not only failing to stop the house from burning down, but actively adding fuel to the fire.

They chose the politically easy path, as always.  And I hold them accountable for that.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

This is actually pure non sense.

You're calling  frivolous the time of the largest economic upturn in history? And you know, amassing a budget surplus isn't exactly burning the foundations of the house either.

words, just words


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Okay, now I'm certain you're confusing the nineties with the eighties.  You are so wrong!


by Mags on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

sigh.  no i'm not.  I'm talking about the nineties--that magical economic time of magnificent increases in the stock market and housing prices, even as income inequality continued to spike through the roof and the manufacturing sector collapsed due to NAFTA and the "era of big government" was declared over.

Yes, the budget was balanced--no doubt.  But I don't consider that an extraordinary achievement, given the inflationary boom we were in.  And yes, there were jobs--but those jobs paid less and less versus inflation.  Versus inflation, it actually got harder to make a living if you weren't being buoyed by your house or stocks.

Those of us who were kids and teens in the nineties know just how far we got sold down the river during that time.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:37:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Wrong on inflation, wrong on income inequality, wrong on manufacturing, wrong for America!

Maybe you should use your talents otherwise. How about knitting?


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

yeah, that's it, actually.  I'll add wrong on trade, wrong on gay rights, wrong on "welfare reform", wrong on "big government" and framing of Democratic values, and wrong on lobbyists to all that as well.

Yeah, that's about it: the Clintons--wrong on just about everything.  Wrong for America.

I'll still vote for them over McCain, though, in the very unlikely event it comes to that.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Those of you who were kids obviously weren't aware of what actually was going on in the nineties in "real time".


by Mags on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

actually, i was very, very aware.  I presume you mean the mean, nasty old Republicans who took Congress.

Guess what--I don't see Bush caving to the Dems near as much as Bill caved to the Republicans.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:16:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

This gas tax debacle demonstrates why for those concerned about the economy, BHO is the ONLY candidate to vote for.


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Unfortunately for you, the gas tax debate is not about the economy, it is about policy making.


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:58:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

yep.  It's BAD, shortsighted policy--just like letting Greenspan inflate asset bubbles.

Get it?  The Clintons are all about short-term victory now, and crossing the big bad bridge up ahead later.

I've had enough of that crap.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

possible, but you were pretending it was about the economy


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

first of all, I wasn't.  The other commenter was.  Second, you're really splitting hairs, aren't you?


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

2 X yes


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:24:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Wait, price levels aren't about the Economy?!?!

Thanks for making my case for me.


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:18:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Well, it is about the economy if you want to argue, as some do, that keeping gas prices up is a long-term economic benefit. It is, but people will not tolerate it for long and Obama wouldn't say that.

Voters buy short-term solutions, however small the benefits. That's what Hillary's proposing. Obama does not offer an economic alternative, his plans are long term-only, and pretty identical to Hillary's.

The alternatives are the gas tax suspension or nothing. So  this debate is about policy-making.


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

I would argue even further, that the gas tax holiday is long-term economic poison (and long term political poison too -- what happens in September when it's over and candidate Hillary is forced to either advocate making it permanent or advocate "raising taxes"?).  

The case I'm making is this:

- Basic economics indicates this would NOT reduce gas prices, even in short term.
- The long term result of increasing demand, even short term, is exponentially worse than the short term benefit.

It's not policy-making, it's politics-making, and a bad idea to boot.  Furthermore, even if its good (very) short term politics for Clinton, it's horrible for the party, as congress is now forced to choose between bad policy and facing ads from republicans about how they voted against tax relief that even Democratic presidential candidates supported.


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Just to clarify: 'basic economics' doesn't indicate such thing and most such suspensions go away in the fall without any problem. The benefit will be very small, but it will be nonetheless. As for the increased demand argument, there are two parts.

First, if it's 'just pennies', how much can it increase demand? Secondly, it seems quite improbable that refineries do not have ANY medium term reserves for the summer months. Is this really true?

finally, I LOVE the way she's taking Congress on. Basically, she's gaining popularity from its unpopularity. Truly presidential thing to do.


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Wow, just wow.

Consider this my closing argument on the subject.  To your points specifically:

1. "Basic Economics" can be applied either short term or long term, an in either case, it does not make this a good idea.  There is a reason that Hillary has not been able to find a <u>single</u> high-profile economist to support this position.  It's a bad economic idea, short and long term.

2. It is just pennies.  How much can this increase demand?  Enough to raise the price, well, just pennies.  Reserves are irrelevant -- prices aren't set by stores, they are set by demand (and in this case speculation -- trust me, the fact that I am not addressing this is in your favor as factoring that in makes this an even worse idea).  

3. This is presidential in the same way Bush is presidential.  It's a horrible idea, advocated for (very) short term political expediency, that would have no real world impact on the very people it purports to help.  She does not gain by taking on congress but rather by pandering to low-information voters (no this is not being elitist, it's being a realist), nor does she advance a tough but needed policy through congress like taking them on over healthcare would be.  No, all she is doing is putting Democratic congressional seats at risk by forcing them to play into a republican talking point.

I've spoken my peace on this.  The economists have spoken their peace.  If you still choose to believe this that this is a good idea, there's really nothing to be said that can dissuade you, but don't pretend that the reality based community is with you on this issue.


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

I wasn't pretending that and I didn't say it was a good idea. What I did say was that the debate is about policy making and you all make it sound like a Great Depression inducing stuff.

However, to the point you were making, I cannot believe smart people were saying that with or without a tax, the pump gas price would be the same. Of course, if supply is stable, the rising demand will raise the price. But is supply really stable?

What's presidential is in the eye of the beholder. I just think it will play out very well politically. One could argue this substantively along the lines of populism versus technocracy: there's smth strange about a Congress at 20% approval siding with Bloomberg and the economists against a (somewhat) popular idea. I'll think about it.


by eumc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Thanks for your reply -- it's reasonable enough that I will respond.

No supply isn't 100% stable. (Though to my previous speculation point, its instabilities are already accounted for in the price).  If we accept as true the premise that supply is limited, we only increase the incentive to charge as much as possible -- especially if policy is being used to increase demand.  Holding onto the supply until prices are higher (provided they raise faster than interest rates dictate, which they currently are) is in the oil companies' best interest.  The only way to get at (private) reserves is to increase the profitability of releasing them.  A windfall tax, even if coupled with the elimination of the pump tax, does that how?  

It may not be depression inducing, but that doesn't make it a good idea.  Is a step in the wrong direction economically and environmentally inadvisable only if depression is the end result?

If someone is running as the candidate of solutions, I would expect them to provide them, not fake them.


by Pragmatic Left on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:29:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Here we go again. The long term proposals are the same for BO and HRC, the general windfall profits scheme is the same as well. The whole difference is whether we should suspend the gas tax for three months or not.

Poor commuters might like it, it's not unreasonable for them to cherish their 50$. You may not like it, but it is a legitimate (and not very significant) solution.

Obama's problem is that he's playing holier than thou without having an alternative short-term 'gimmick' of his own. Voters might not like that, but again, it's legitimate for him as well to make the points he's making.


by eumc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:38:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

The long term windfall scheme is not a bad idea on its own.  (I would couple it with an increase in the mileage deduction for the self-employed and those who pay their own gas and a low-income tax credit for long-distance commuters (easily verifiable on tax filings)).  

As for suspending it for three months, if it would actually save poor commuters $50 that would be one thing, but it won't.  Obama actually gives it more credit than it deserves by suggesting it would.  Even if it did, I would come back to them in September.  It is not a legitimate solution and wholly insignificant.

Your beef is he doesn't have an ineffectual short term gimmick?  That's why I continue to support him.

Hillary would not propose this if she didn't think was necessary to her becoming the nominee, in no small part, because in September, she'd either be forced to defend "raising taxes" by ending it, or extending a bad policy by continuing it.


by Pragmatic Left on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:48:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Yeap, support him you will:)

An observation: the last point is false, the gas tax suspending legislation simply states that companies do not pay the gas tax from 1st of July to 1st of Oct. That's it, no debates after the three months, no political brouhaha, nothing, life goes back to normal.


by eumc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:00:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

I stand completely by my last point.

The argument you make asserting it is false is equivalent to saying the patriot act expires.  Well, yeah, it does, but that doesn't mean every time the legislation is set to expire it there is "no political brouhaha," and "life goes back to normal."

To assert otherwise is pretty naive.  I hope Hillary does not expect the skies to open up and Republicans to miraculously just drop the issue...


by Pragmatic Left on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:09:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Oh boy, when a law expires, the legislature should be pushed to reexamine it. That's always the job of the executive branch. The Patriot Act was pushed by Bush as well as the fast-track trade authority. If the Executive doesn't push it, it certainly dies.

Also notice that this wouldn't quite be a bill that expires, it would be a bill with limited effects. It's a suspension, it doesn't confer rights or responsibilities.


by eumc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:29:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Sure, and when the repeal of the estate tax expires, I'm sure as long as President Obama (or Clinton) will have to raise the issue themselves.  Othwerise it will just silently reinstate itself with no brouhaha.  Republicans will never bring it up during the 2010 congressional campaign and it will not make the news.  (Sorry for the AM snark, but I really don't think you've thought this through.)


by Pragmatic Left on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:32:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

People only give a damn about short-term policies when those policies actually help. AND THIS DOES NOT DO ANYTHING BUT BAD. You said thereisnospoon was on the right-wing side of the mandate issue, but your position on this issue is FAR, FAR more right-wing, because you are willing to throw out a tax that directly contributes to needed jobs and needed public services to gain symbolic political points. I can't think of ANYTHING that symbolizes the horrible policies of the Right better than that.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Oh come on, no 'needed jobs and needed public services' will be lost, remember Hillary is actually paying for it. You may not like the windfall profits scheme (a lot of economists do not), but Obama is planning to use it long-term himself, isn't he?


by eumc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:40:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 2)

I was a teenager in the 90s.  My generation got sold out so a bunch of homeowners could use their houses as ATMs, and so that a bunch of stockholders could see their holdings go up by 100% in a few short years contrary to all rationality.

In the meantime, cost of living increased for everyone everywhere, college got more expensive, and jobs paid less versus inflation.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost, and Clinton Democrats pretend it's all Bush's fault.

It isn't.  It's Alan Greenspan's--and the Clintons'--as much as it is Bush's and Bernanke's.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

You must have the nineties confused with the past 7 years ~ unless you're talking about the eighties.  Reality check please.  Where exactly did you get all your talking points?


by Mags on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:30:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

Actually, none of that is wrong at all.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Really?  I strongly disagree!


by Mags on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

with which part, exactly?


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:22:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

uhhh...history?  These are fairly well-established facts.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Thanks so much for writing this.  I'm so sick of hearing about how great the 90's were with no thought as to how the policies enacted during that era have influenced not only the economy but the entire political landscape today.  The consequences of an action are not always felt immediately.  Rampant speculation and corporate consolidation without government oversight led to the dot-com bubble and it's burst, the CA energy crisis, the housing fiasco, and ever rising gas prices  which in turn is making the cost of everything else go up.  We very badly need a Teddy Roosevelt.  I'm not sure we've got him in Obama, but I KNOW that no Clinton will ever take on corporate greed in a serious way.

One thing you didn't mention was the deregulation of the media which has led to a "media" which acted as cheerleaders in the run up to Iraq, have systematically helped Republicans control this country, and openly state their love affair with John McCain.


by Renie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:53:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Boy, Spoon -
You sure have turned into a troll during the primaries.

PS - As a gay man who watched the McClurkin affair unfold, I would venture to suggest that Obama has plenty of experience with selling and rivers.


by johnnygunn on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (1.50 / 2)

only a "troll" if you're a rabid Clinton supporter.  The rest of you "walked out" on your "strike" because you couldn't take the heat at DailyKos where most of the progressive community hangs out.  So you hang out here in an echo chamber where your talking points go unchallenged, and anyone who challenges them is a troll.

The Clintons were bad for the Democratic Party.  That's a well-established fact that even Jerome Armstrong, current Clinton supporter, acknowledges in his own book.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:45:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You may not be a troll (2.00 / 4)

but you aren't a progressive either. No progressive I have ever known has said anything as stupid as Roe v Wade doesn't matter, because they can always go to Canada if they need an abortion. And you did say that on kos, in one of your ridiculously hysterical diaries falsely charging caucus tampering in Nevada.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You may not be a troll (none / 0)

I don't think I said that--and if I said anything remotely similar, it would have been in comparison to things like global warming that are utterly inescapable.

Link me to where I said anything like that, and I'm almost certain you'll find a great deal of context there.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:00:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You may not be a troll (none / 0)

you say "falsely charging."  Why?  I have multiple accounts on the record, both in print and on audio.  Including an account from the editor of The Nation magazine.

Meanwhile, a diary with FAR less proof is currently at the top of the MyDD rec list.  You people are hilarious.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 2)

If anyone has become rabid it is you, Spoon.
We had an exchange months ago on DKos right after I had defended you against an inappropriate troll rating where you troll rated me for criticizing Obama.  You lost me then and there.  You ridicule and belittle others, then cry "Wolf!" at the least perceived offense.
by johnnygunn on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

spoon, good to know that you're back on the beat. I always enjoy your insight.


by venician on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

thx


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

You are a bitter bitter spoon.  And btw, so far you win the "most rabid" award in this thread.  And re taking the heat at Dkos ~ it wasn't about the heat, it was about the rabid ugly vitriol.


by Mags on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

you say tomato...


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

Dude!  Right on!!!!!  So true.

I'd say it was more of us being thrown under the bus.  

What he did in this situation is the epitome of politics as usual.  Double speaking hypocrit.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

"It doesn't matter what the "experts" say.  Ordinary people don't hear them."

After 8 years of George Bush I am amazed to see something like this come from a Democrat.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:29:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (1.50 / 4)

rabid Clinton supporters are pretty much willing to say anything at this point.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:33:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Why am I not troll rating this person?


by johnnygunn on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:43:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Yeah, that's right.  I absolutely stand by it.  And I am 350% a Democrat.

The biggest problem with Democrats is that they are always convinced they are right and all they have to do is make their point.  Then the sky will part and angles will sing.

WRONG!  

I say it all the time: it isn't an argument you want to win, it is a fight.  You have to manipulate the media and pull stunts.  It works.  You can talk until you are blue in the face about how pointless it is to revoke the tax and tax windfall profits.

THE PEOPLE, all they hear is "suspend the tax" and that's all they need to hear.  You start "explaining", they tune out and, actually, stop liking you.  See Al Gore 2000.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Just want to add one thing.

The hatred of GWB and Dick Cheney has in no way shape or form sparked a social revolution in this country.  That hatred has not made them any less racist, homophobic, or more educated and intellectually curious than they were in January 2000.

I know many Obama supporters are under the impression that such a revolution has taken place.  It won't be the first time that the Democratic party blindfolds itself and walks off a cliff with self-richeous smiles on their faces.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Well, people are more tolerant now. Look at all "who's more outraged" game of this campaign.

However, I agree, Dems are destined to "walk off a cliff with self-righteous smiles on their faces.". At least we're enjoying ourselves


by eumc on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

ummmm...did you see 2006?  Or did I dream that?  Have you seen the latest in Louisiana?


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

"THE PEOPLE, all they hear is "suspend the tax" and that's all they need to hear.  You start "explaining", they tune out and, actually, stop liking you."

If that is not an elitist statement, I don't know what is.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Yeah, I'm not a politician.  I can say what I think.

If Obama wants to make arguments and points, he should go back to being a professor and get out of this business.  What he said was above and beyond IDIOTIC.

Oh, wait, he wasn't actually a professor, was he.  Sorry.  He should go back to being a TA.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

Then you and Clinton have something in common. Neither of you is going to be the nominee.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

You may be right.  He may be the nominee. God I hope not.

He will never ever never never never be president.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Right, because John McCain is such a dynamic candidate that is right on all the issues.

Obama and Clinton are fighting over who goes on to beat John McCain.

If you're a basketball fan, Obama and Clinton are the West, McCain is the East.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

I'm not a basketball fan.  I only understand baseball-speak, and that's only between the Sox and Yankees.

Seriously, though.  In 2004 the public was in the mood to go shopping for a new president.  The public was ready to throw the jerk out.  Just as consumers may be ready to get rid of their shitty car, the alternatives may not be satisfying.  

The public did not see John Kerry, for whatever reason, as an unacceptable alternative.  If the public, again for whatever reason, sees Obama as unacceptable alternative, they will vote for McCain's flappy old, Bush-kissing face.

Call me elitist all the live long day for saying it: Americans are, by and large, dumber than a box of rocks.  I am more than convinced enough people will never vote for Obama, guranteeing the unfortunate election of John McCain.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Kerry lost because he ran a garbage campaign. Obama has already proven he can beat a Democratic party icon in a Democratic primary. I think his GE campaign will be just a top notch.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

He lost because he was just a terrible candidate.  

Obama does excite people, unlike Kerry.  However the same people Kerry needed and who rejected Kerry, meaning working class white people, will probably reject Obama too.  I certainly hope not.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:08:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Bill Frist was killed for offering to send all Americans $100 to help with gas prices. Clinton is offering us around $30 maybe.

So you put these two plans next to each other, which is better?


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

Truck drivers would have saved several thousands of dollars from the tax holiday.  Just because you and most people drive up the street to go to work, some people actually make their living in their cars and end up driving thousands of miles a week.

You should start thinking about other people more and put down the Obama Kool-Aide.  You've had enough. Trust me.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (2.00 / 1)

I make my living in my car. And nothing about Clintons plan guarantees anybody anything.

Just because you lower the tax does it mean that oil companies bring down the prices.

And I thought the windfall profits tax was going towards green technologies.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Also, don;t give me a "Gas Tax Holiday".

Give me a "People Using the Idiotic Kool-Aide Attack Holiday".


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:50:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

Truck drivers won't save anything when oil companies raise prices to meet the increased demand.  A windfall tax will not offset this, and may actually lead to even higher end-user prices.

If we are LUCKY, a windfall tax can head off the inevitable loss of jobs.

There is good reason not a single economist has come out in support of this plan.  Talk about drinking kool aid!


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:51:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

THIS is why I support BHO... (none / 0)

For once we have a candidate, who win or loose speaks to Americans like adults.  

If getting elected means advocating Republican policies that don't make sense, then frankly, what's the point of getting elected?

I want someone who can effectively explain why the positions of the Democratic party reflect mainstream American values and common sense.  Not someone who takes asinine positions, like this gas tax holiday, because they hold Americans (or their own rhetorical skill) in so little regard that they adopt the next best strategy of failing to differentiate themselves.  It is this thinking that got us the Iraq war (and no, Hillary was not alone in this failure of leadership, which I believe lost us congress in 2002), the defense of marriage act and the patriot act, just to name a few.

And for the record, Al Gore WON.


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THIS is why I support BHO... (none / 0)

He's not president is he?

It should have never been close.

I agree he should have been president, but the Dem party and the Gore campaign acted like incompetent fools.

HRC would have never left the state like that with a "thank you very much".


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THIS is why I support BHO... (2.00 / 1)

Nor would Obama


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:10:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant (none / 0)

BULL! People are well aware how useless this will be. EVERYONE is aware of how useless this will be, and when gas actually DOES hit $4.00 a gallon, nobody will care.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wait, WHAT? (1.33 / 3)

So, Clinton "scored political points" through a roundly panned economic proposal by uniting with Republicans against her Democratic colleagues in Congress and with John F'ing McCain?

You actually like the "sell everything and everyone down the river to win" approach?  That means that you, like Mark Penn, are a total asshole.


by hekebolos on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:54:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wait, WHAT? (none / 0)

I am giving you a 1.  That's a 2 for your first, totally true and relevant point, and a zero for the personal attack of calling the previous commenter an asshole.  (Calling Mark Penn and asshole, however is perfectly legitimate.)


by Pragmatic Left on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah, sure (2.00 / 1)

I went over the top.  But seeing someone overtly espouse that mentality makes me a little angry.


by hekebolos on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wait, WHAT? (none / 0)

I don;t like troll rating people, but lets keep it clean.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wait, WHAT? (2.00 / 1)

Its people like you that make this party the incompetent, sorry-excuse for an election machine.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no, wrong (none / 0)

it's people with your "do the immediately politically expedient below-the-belt thing" that caused the party to shrivel up and die during your heroine's husband's presidency, and I'm working my ass off to make sure that you and yours don't get another chance to use this style of Republican-lite politics to put us back in the same hole.


by hekebolos on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:12:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no, wrong (none / 0)

FACT: Bill Clinton is the first Democrat to be re-elected since FDR!

Its a matter of getting elected and then re-elected.  If you don't want to play the game, then for goodness sake, get out of the way and let those who relish the fight do their thing.


by MKyleM on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no, wrong (none / 0)

you don't get it, do you?  What good does it do to win if you sell out your principles?  That's what has 25% of the Republican party furious and threatening to stay home with McCain, because they don't believe he'll adhere to Republican principles.

I don't need Democrats in office who think that lobbyists are real people, and who try to push stupid Republican policies like a gas tax.

People like you think that all we have to do is say whatever it takes to win the presidency, and then everything will be fine.  No, it won't be fine.  You govern how you campaign, which is why the country and its laws got moved to the right during Clinton's presidency.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no, wrong (none / 0)

Just take a look at how quickly any and all good done by Bill Clinton was undone by Bush. What was it, a year? Two?


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no, wrong (none / 0)

what good?  This is the amazing thing with you people.  You think Bush did it all in just 18 months?  That everything was fantastic under Clinton and everything just came totally undone by Bush in just over a year?

Get real.  The Enronization and corporate takeover of America was solidified under the Clintons.  The Greenspan asset bubbles in stocks and housing ran up under Clinton, not Bush.  Income inequality went up under Clinton by massive amounts.

Many of the problems we are dealing with today--the asset bubbles, the financialization of the economy, the massive income inequality, the massive debt burdens of many Americans, the